Interview 1975 Castaneda, Luiz Kossobudzki
Google Translate from Portuguese (source)
Interview with Carlos Castaneda published in 1975
Source: Revista Veja nº 356 -1975
Note : Shortly after the malicious publication of Time magazine , which denied Castaneda at a time when it became a notary and reached the center of the debates, stating, based on obscure documents, to be the Peruvian author of Cajamarca, and not Brazilian, Castaneda granted this interview to Veja Magazine. The sine qua nonfor this was that the interview should come out first in Brazil. The young man who made the free-lancer for Veja, a sort of Brazilian TIME, could attest that Castaneda spoke Portuguese perfectly, with a regional accent. Castaneda provided negative magazine (photos) that he did during his travels to Mexico - documentary evidence of his anthropological work and field research. Unfortunately Veja chose not to polemize, and put in the sub-title not that Castaneda was Brazilian, but rather that he was a "man alone and without a pater." After this interview, Castaneda stayed about 10 years without talking to the press.
the wizard, a homeless man
After fifteen years of lessons, the Brazilian, perhaps Peruvian or American, learned to have no biography or roots.
Since he began to relate in books his meetings with Don Juan, dating back to 1960, Carlos César Arana Castaneda has become the most invisible and impalpable literary personality of today. Incomplete fragments of his biography have appeared in the only two journals he has given the interview, the Time and Psychology Today magazines , he has not photographed himself in the last ten years and has not bothered to clarify some crucial questions. So he would have been born in the interior of São Paulo, on Christmas Day 1935, he told Time. But, according to the magazine, the birth of gave ten years earlier in a city of Peru.
Speaking of this discovery, Castaneda reacted flawlessly to a sorcerer's apprentice who aspires to erase his personal identity: "These statistics do not mean anything. Important what we are, not what we were." So, with that uncertain nationality and with an age that would walk to the 40 or 50 years, although it certainly appeared less, the only signs of the terrestrial existence of Castaneda were a Volkswagen and two houses of its property in California. Earlier this year, Brazilian student Luiz André Kossobudzki, a fellow at UCLA, found him at a baking dinner with "normal" literary figures such as Irving Stone and Irving Wallace. Fifteen months later, at the end of last March, received from Castaneda the negatives of the photos that the author had taken in Mexico, and which VEJA publishes along with this exclusive interview, to which the interviewee imposed the condition that it should be published in Brazil before any other country. Kossobudzki recalls his meetings: "I, my wife and four other foreign fellows were perhaps the only guests at dinner that we did not have the names engraved on some plaque of honor. We tried, without being able to, a place at Castaneda's table, but after dinner he himself came We began to speak in English, but shortly afterwards he addressed us with Portuguese fluency (including an accent) and claimed to have been born in the interior of the state of São Paulo, in a city of São Paulo. valley of the Paraíba, and that had passed part of its childhood in Juqueri *.We agreed to meet again for a feijoada, but Castaneda disappeared for several months. A call from his literary agent informed him that he was still interested in seeing me. Finally, we spoke three times, one at my home and two at the UCLA campus, where he works from fourteen to eighteen hours daily in his research on ethnic-hermeneutics (perceptual interpretation studies of different ethnic groups). Castaneda appears to be 35 years old, 1.70 meters tall and about 70 kilos. Physically, it would pass through Mato Grosso or even Northeastern caboclo. "
- There is no municipality of São Paulo with this name. Juqueri, however, is the name of a mental health facility in the municipality of Franco da Rocha, in Greater São Paulo, which is often mistaken for the name of the hospital. Juquiri is the old name of the municipality of Mairiporã, also in Greater São Paulo.
Learning to live with witchcraft
SEE - When one reads about Don Juan, one has the impression that he is a poor man with a vast knowledge of life. Could you speak of your surprise when you meet him in a suit on "Door to Infinity"?
CASTANEDA - I trembled in fear, for I was accustomed to seeing him only in field clothes. This occurred in the final phase of the teachings and had a rationale. Don Juan revealed to me that he owned several stocks on the Stock Exchange, and I'm pretty sure that if he were a typically Western man he would be living in a penthouse apartment in downtown New York. Finally I learned that the two realities could be divided into what Don Juan called tonal (conscious) and nagual (that is not spoken). In reality of social consensus, the wizard, the man of knowledge, is a perfect "tonal" - a man of his time, current, who uses the world in the best possible way. We use history as a way to recapture the past world and plan for the future. For the wizard, past is past and there is no personal or collective history.
SEE - The principal of his encounter with Don Juan is written in the book "The teachings of Don Juan" (in the Brazilian version, the Devil's Herb), but nowhere is there any mention of exactly where they were. site?
CASTANEDA - on the border between the states of California (United States) and Sonora (Mexico) there is a town called Nogales Starting from Nogales, the main highway passing through the city of Hermosillo, capital of Sonora, the city of Guayamas and finally. crosses the Vicam Station.To the west of Vicam Station, towards the Pacific, there is the city of Vicam, inhabited mostly by Yaqui Indians.Valam is the place where I first met Don Juan. the teachings.
SEE - In order not to take the liberty of Don Juan, you have not revealed this place to this day. How do you now feel free to describe it accurately?
CASTANEDA - Because now no one could find Don Juan; he is no longer there, and Don Genaro also disappeared from the mountains of Central Mexico (Sierra Madre Occidental). There is no way to find them. Don Juan showed me and taught me everything he could and so there is no need for him to remain at my disposal. Likewise, you know that if you want to meet me, just go to UCLA, leave a message, or look me in the research library. But if I fail to come to UCLA, you will not have the faintest idea where to find me. Like Don Juan, I try to live as a sorcerer.
SEE - Many people, myself included, find it difficult to accept factually the descriptions of Don Juan's teachings. Do you care that people react that way?
CASTANEDA - No, because I do not emphasize the importance of myself. this is a crucial point of the teachings I received from Don Juan. I rarely talk to anyone, and when I talk it's face to face. No recorders or photographs, which would carry weight on me. Aside from hurting one of the basic premises of witchcraft and witchcraft, I would be restraining my own freedom. When I emphasize myself, I am scolding myself, I am putting behind me a burden that goes beyond my ability to carry it. To put such weight on my back is to attach great importance to my own person. During the teachings, Don Juan made sketches in the sand of the desert with the big toe and filled the circles with verbosity. He said that "charge yourself" leads a person to a sense of "personal importance" that combined do not allow "actions" on the part of the person. The more weight people accumulate, the more important they feel, and the fewer actions they perform.
SEE - Why did you publish your books?
CASTANEDA - Because this was my task. The wizard fulfills tasks that are placed in place of the weight on himself and the personal importance. My work is not made up of erudition, but a collection of life that Don Juan put into his teachings. The wizard fulfills the tasks that give him satisfaction. He fulfills them without waiting for recognition of society or something that is worth it, what would be the "carrying itself" exercised by the scholar, with the purpose of obtaining personal importance, which is not my case. For example, if this interview is taken as an act of witchcraft, it becomes a task to be fulfilled.
SEE - This interview, its work, its work, and even the fact that we exchange ideas for several hours, has an effect that seems to me to go beyond the simple fulfillment of tasks. They bring you satisfaction, otherwise you would not. Moreover, you expect your message, the teachings of Don Juan, to have an impact on the public. Would not this be the case of fulfilling tasks and waiting for the recognition of society?
CASTANEDA - I perform my tasks so fluently that they do not affect me in terms of self-importance, but in terms of how I live my life. I know dozens of "teachers" standing in an ivory tower of knowledge: they know everything, and run the show into the galleries; the more they are acclaimed, or the more recognition they receive, the more self-important they feel, but this same self-importance becomes weight, the cross being carried, and they as people are nothing. The work affects them in terms of self-importance, but not in terms of personal life. Work affects me in terms of personal life, but not of self-importance. Don Juan warned me and advised me never to become a peacock, "peacock," which is the result of the emphasis on personal importance. The less the person thinks and "pseudo-age" in terms of self-importance it becomes more complete. And the more self-important you feel, the more incomplete you become. The incomplete being is born of the incessant search for social recognition.
SEE - But if the person acts, would not he be automatically looking for self-recognition?
CASTANEDA: Not if you're acting like a witch. The wizard lives life for himself and for himself and not for the galleries. He does not allow himself to be influenced by the reactions of social consensus, since he does not act in terms of self-importance. He knows to "stop the world," or rather, he has the ability to "not do."
The "world stopped" by a magic pass .
SEE - What does "do, do not do" and "stop the world" mean?
CASTANEDA - it is necessary to explain the meaning of "doing." "Doing" is the consensus that makes the world exist. The world of our reality is reality because we are involved in the "doing" of that reality. People are born with a halo of power, power that develops and intertwines with the dominant consensus. People look at the world as dictated, with the eyes of the dominant consensus. On the other hand, "not doing" is possible when an extra halo of power develops to form the existence of the reality of another world. The warrior-pirate does not escape the "doing" of the world, but fights within this reality, the reality of the dominant consensus. which aids you in creating the extra power halo. The act of "not doing" leads to "stopping the world", which is the first step to "see". The world of ordinary reality, from day to day, seems to us the way it is because of social consensus. "To stop the world" means to interrupt the common chain of interpretation of the world, the dominant consensus, or in other words, to stop the consensus is to see the world as a wizard in a non-ordinary reality. "Stopping the world" is living in a magical temporal space, while living in the reality of consensus is living in an ordinary temporal space.
SEE - A witch is a pragmatist, and you label yourself that way. What would be the practical application of "doing," "not doing," and "stopping the world"?
CASTANEDA - You smoke badly, like a desperate one. I smoked like you, and I smoked four packs of cigarettes a day until Don Juan suggested that I use my compulsion to quit smoking. I should get involved in the "no-do" of smoking. For that I would have to observe the smoking. I began to watch the "get up" of getting up in the morning and immediately look for my cigarettes, the "do" of putting them in my pocket, the "to do" of touching the pocket of my shirt with my left hand to make sure that the cigarettes were there. The place of the cigarette, the smoking of two of them on the way to the university, and so on, were my "doing" of smoking. Like me, you can observe what constitutes your "doing" of smoking. A systematic measure of doing leads the person not to perform the details of the act of smoking. To "stop the world" of smoking the person has to learn to compulsively say no to the "doing" of smoking. 1 This example is roughly an application of the teachings, for I quit smoking early in the first contact with Don Juan, but only managed to "stop the world" from ordinary reality after ten years. From this point Don Juan stopped using hallucinogenic plants as part of the teachings.
Guides to ending common sense
SEE - You do not smoke, do not drink and avoid coffee. How, then, do you see the use of drugs as part of the teachings of Don Juan?
CASTANEDA - Don Juan used psychotropics and hallucinogenic plants as an aid to the teachings. Once they reached the goal, these vehicles became unnecessary. Drugs are evil to the body, and have no defect beyond a certain quality that the wizard needs. SEE - In what way did drugs serve as an auxiliary instrument to the teachings of Don Juan? CASTANEDA -
the direction of common sense or common sense of nonordinary reality (reality of witchcraft). Common sense and common sense are directly connected to our body. With the use of drugs, there is an interruption in common sense and opening of a new direction, and this new direction can only be found with a guide (wizard), otherwise the use of such drugs is worthless. Man generally has the idea of enjoying life through addictions. An addict is a professional child. To interrupt the chain of glosses, to stop the world, with the use of drugs only for the pleasure of interrupting, can only cause damage, besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. Common sense and common sense are directly connected to our body. With the use of drugs, there is an interruption in common sense and opening of a new direction, and this new direction can only be found with a guide (wizard), otherwise the use of such drugs is worthless. Man generally has the idea of enjoying life through addictions. An addict is a professional child. To interrupt the chain of glosses, to stop the world, with the use of drugs only for the pleasure of interrupting, can only cause damage, besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. Common sense and common sense are directly connected to our body. With the use of drugs, there is an interruption in common sense and opening of a new direction, and this new direction can only be found with a guide (wizard), otherwise the use of such drugs is worthless. Man generally has the idea of enjoying life through addictions. An addict is a professional child. To interrupt the chain of glosses, to stop the world, with the use of drugs only for the pleasure of interrupting, can only cause damage, besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. and this new direction can only be found with a guide (witch), otherwise the use of such drugs is worthless. Man generally has the idea of enjoying life through addictions. An addict is a professional child. To interrupt the chain of glosses, to stop the world, with the use of drugs only for the pleasure of interrupting, can only cause damage, besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. and this new direction can only be found with a guide (witch), otherwise the use of such drugs is worthless. Man generally has the idea of enjoying life through addictions. An addict is a professional child. To interrupt the chain of glosses, to stop the world, with the use of drugs only for the pleasure of interrupting, can only cause damage, besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will. besides being a joke whose price is expensive. Once the body has learned to stop the current, there is no longer any need for help for such an interruption. The person interrupts by his own will.
A strange psychotherapy: feeling dead
SEE - Do you think that the process of voluntary interruption of the "common sense" chain would be effective if applied to psychotherapy?
CASTANEDA - The success of Don Juan as a psychotherapist is impressive. He made me aware that he was a professional child, that I was putting a lot of weight on myself, emphasizing my personal importance, and not turning my fantasies into actions. He taught me to live for the now, to face my death as an inevitable and existing fact in my life. The concept of death must be seen as a reality. Don Juan taught me that if I considered myself dead, none of my actions would have personal importance, and with that I could change, or changes could be made and tasks fulfilled. The inevitable fact of death is very morbid to Western man, and as a result the West seeks social interaction for the purpose of adjustment to "common sense."
VEJA - Would it be correct to say that the person, in our reality labeled as psychotic, for Don Juan would be just the person who accidentally interrupted the current of "common sense" and could not make this current?
CASTANEDA - Right. The wizard breaks the chain of common sense of his own accord. it is not an accidental thing. In the first experiences I am almost certain that without a guide I would have lost contact with the reality of the consensus; in other words, I would not be able to find the way back to that reality. The guide guides the learner out of the reality of consensus and into the strange reality of witchcraft, as well as getting out of that strange reality and returning to the reality of consensus. This exercise is repeated until the learner acquires the mastery of his own will. For the psychotic, the exercise on the direction of a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist is to return to the reality of consensus, and to remain conformed. The wizard, besides being a guide, is the model of "man of knowledge". For Don Juan, any change is only possible if the person practices his own teachings. Again the "I do what I say" philosophy prevails.
SEE - "Door to Infinity" mentions the use of dreams as an exercise in mastery and control of one's own will. Is this control of the same nature of the domain of your own will to which you have just referred?
CASTANEDA -I mention in this book the various exercises for controlling dreams, that is, so that the person can put the dreams at his service and dream productively. These dreams require the same mastery of the will that is necessary to get out and return to ordinary reality. Dreams for a sorcerer are not symbolic, but are the fruits of the control that he acquires through the teachings. He sleeps dreaming of productive dreams, as a continuation from day to day, rather than dreaming ordinary ordinary dreams, and uncontrolled. Little by little, a person can discipline himself to the point of dreaming, being able to see his own image asleep and dreaming. The extreme case of this control can be exemplified by what Don Genaro claims to be capable of materializing a duplicate of his own person. With dream control the person can increase their ability to act.
SEE - Do you think we only exploit and use our potential for reasons inherent in our formal education?
CASTANEDA - The formal and informal education of the Western man does not give rise to anything strange or different from the social consensus. What is outside the norm of our common sense is considered an abnormality. There is also a lack of emphasis on the notion of responsibility to oneself: we do not speak sufficiently of the responsibility for our children, and for this reason few cease to be children, and live life as child-professionals. Explaining better: the professional child is the person who needs affection and is rewarded through the care given to him. It is self.important, an eternal terible infant.. I wanted to stop being a child once and for all, but I was very dear to myself, and always had an excuse to continue to nourish my self-importance. I did nothing, produced nothing, actions were muted by my plans and decisions, and by my sense of personal importance. Until I learned from Don Juan to stop being a professional child and I became a pirate warrior. Sitting, hoping that they would give me everything or daydreaming about the glory of my self importance, did not bring me anything. I had to go look for courage and discipline.
From professional child to warrior-pirate
SEE - You live like a wizard, that is, a life of anonymity, while your work is public and very successful. What is the personal satisfaction that results from this apparent antagonism between author and person?
CASTANEDA - Minha satisfação vem de escrever impecavelmente e de apresentar minha pessoa à luz da verdade. Eu realmente não vejo antagonismo, pois minha vida pessoal é um reflexo da minha obra. Novamente afirmo que faço aquilo que digo, pratico aquilo que prego. E uma vez que sou honesto comigo mesmo, não me importa o que e como a galeria pensa ou reage. Desta forma, sou livre dos altos e baixos. Veja o exemplo de Tinothy Leary, o guru do ácido lisérgico. Ele é um exemplo típico de excesso de auto-importância. Lá pelas tantas o peso se tornou demasiado e ele teve que pagar o preço extremo. Muitos são os escritores que pregam mas não seguem a própria pregação, muitas são as pessoas que promovem um corpo forte e uma mente sadia, mas acabam destruindo gradativamente o próprio corpo e mente. Don Juan era o modelo que fazia e praticava tudo aquilo que era colocado como tarefa para mim, durante todos os anos da aprendizagem.
VEJA - O senhor mencionou o modelo de Don Juan, mas foi também exposto a um outro modelo: o consenso social. Como alia esses modelos em sua vida?
CASTANEDA - O modelo de Don Juan me deu os parâmetros de uma realidade diferente da do consenso social. Outro modelo me conduzia ao eterno enfant terrible. Ao longo dos ensinamentos, abandonei este último. Um modelo me conduzia à criança profissional, e outro ao verdadeiro guerreiro-pirata. Quando a pessoa tira o senso de auto-importância o senso de auto-importância do seu caminho e toma a consciência de que o homem que puxa a corda e trama os pauzinhos é tão humano quanto eu ou você, ela pode atingir aquilo que quiser. A pessoa pode ser ultra-inteligente e cheia de recursos, mas se somente espera que as coias lhe venham às mãos, quando não é atendida pelo mundo cai num estado de ódio, remorso e medo. O guerreiro-pirata não tem medo, ele não espera que as coisas venham até ele. Ele age, cumpre suas tarefas, e ao mesmo tempo não se preocupa com as conseqüências.
1 Em uma entrevista mais recente, concedida a Carmina Fort, Castaneda relata que Don Juan, para fazê-lo parar de fumar, certa vez levou ao deserto, avisando que iam passar lá vários dias. Castaneda fez um estoque de cigarros, com várias caixas embrulhadas. Enquanto dormiam, os cigarros sumiram. Castaneda, desesperado, procurava uma explicação. Don Juan disse que talvez tivesse sido os coiotes. Rondaram as habitações próximas mas não acharam nada para Castaneda fumar. Esse acontecimento foi decisivo para ele largar o mau-hábito (nota do redator)
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