Interview 1993 Abelar, Haines Ely

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KVMR Radio - Taisha Abelar 1993

Hanes Ealy: Taisha, we're on the air, welcome to the Earth Mystery Show.

Taisha Abelar: Well, its a pleasure to be here and may I before we begin, I know you announced my name and I don't know what kind of thing.... you gave an introduction, but I would like to state my name again because we always begin our lectures and interviews by stating our names. My name is Taisha Abelar and we state it because it is a dream.

Sorcerers say that when a person reaches the final stages of dreaming, they are what they dream, and so Taisha Abelar is the dream that I am dreaming so therefore for magical purposes we always begin by stating our names, our magical names.

HE: I was going to ask you to do that 'cause I knew you would want to anyway.

TA: Ok, Thank you.

HE: Let me ask you just since we are on the name, a little bit more about the name. You met don Juan, the Yaqui Indian sorcerer Carlos Castaneda wrote ten books about, you met him under the name of John Michael Abelar.

TA: Yes.

HE: The name Abelar means what?

TA: Well Abelar is really a line, a name that is given to the stalkers of don Juan's lineage, so if you've noticed, you also come across the name Grau.

HE: Right. Florinda Donner Grau and your teacher, or your introduction to the sorcerers' world, Clara Grau.

TA: Yes, so the stalkers were given the name Abelar and the dreamers were given the name Grau and they alternate generation to generation so even the Naguals are given Grau, the Nagual Julian was Julian Grau, and so that ever other generation, the name alternates, but those are just designators as to the predilection of the person, whether he should be a dreamer or a stalker.

HE: But don Juan has also used the name Dilas Grau, hasn't he?

TA: Yes.

HE: So he would be...

TA: Grau, that is, Carlos uses that name. Carlos used the name Dilas in some of his uh... The names really don't... We use many many different names depending on what our purpose is. So that right now I am Taisha Abelar because this is the dream that we are dreaming now but those things change and the names just signify the intent that has been set up and its is like an amalgamation of a particular intent and that name triggers that dream.

HE: I think I understand from my readings what stalking is but for the listeners who don't know what stalking is could you give us a brief description of what stalking is?

TA: Yes. Stalking is really the the um, the... When the assemblage point moves... Now I think your listeners should be familiar with the term "assemblage point"? Its that position on the luminous... When you see the luminous body as an energy conglomeration, there's one place on it that is very well lit up and that is the center of consciousness and sorcerers call it the assemblage point. When you move that in dreaming, which it moves naturally in sleep, you have to be able to keep it in a position long enough in order to amalgamate or recognize that new reality, because if it just shifts randomly, you have random ah... Like in dreams, your dreams, your perception is very random. But stalking is the ability to maintain the assemblage point fixed in any particular position after it has been displaced through dreaming, so they really go hand in hand.

People say "well she's a stalker, Florinda Donner Grau is a dreamer." No, we're both and thats why the names really aren't rigid or fixed. Every dreamer has to be a stalker because if you don't have that discipline or the ability to keep the assemblage point fixed at any particular position, then the energy is dispersed, you are unable to perceive any reality, including our own, because what we are doing now in this reality, is we're stalking. We're stalking our world, the world of everyday life, by keeping our energy center or assemblage point fixed at a certain position enabling us to perceive the world of everyday life, and stalking on another level is the ability to lets say, flesh out the reality that we perceive by labeling, categorizing, creating order and thats what a stalker does. He takes the perceptions that come to him or her directly via his energy body and he creates order, he creates a structure that is recognizable and real, just as real as the reality of everyday life because we are also doing stalking, just we learned it very, very early when we learned to amalgamate perception and we also learned to do stalking so we could create the agreement that this whatever, world, that we live in is real. And sorcerers do stalking with other dream positions.

HE: You've done some very interesting positions from what I've gathered in your life and if I might tell the listeners about one of them, it was Sheila Waters, the wonderful business woman...

TA: Ah yes. You saw a demonstration of that.

HE: I saw a demonstration of it and if I might tell them a small anecdote, after you were Sheila Waters and when you returned to Taisha Abelar, I came up just to play with you and I asked you "Would Sheila Waters get coffee for the men?"

TA: Ah yes, I remember.

HE: And you instantly became Sheila Waters, there wasn't even a microsecond of delay before you answered me as Sheila Waters so your stalking was perfect.

TA: Of course we were very well trained, I mean all of our adult life, really, was in the sorcerers' world and that is what we have become. We have been dreaming different positions, therefore I say the name Sheila Waters is the name of a position of the assemblage point, a dream position.

In order to shift from one position to the next, the assemblage point has to be absolutely fluid. Stalking maintains it, so it seems to have a rigidity associated with it but it is not rigid the way we are in our everyday life where we maintain this world as the only world, our reality as the only reality and we are incapable of letting go. Especially lets say... Females tend to be more fluid in that they're not the bastions of the social order, where the males, just because our reality of our everyday life demands it, males need to be the upholders of the great institutions which are really institutions created in the domain of intent and consciousness. Even our political systems, our religious systems, the legal, the medical professions, all those are areas where we have put energy and we have built up - sociologists call it "glosses" or interpretive structures, structures of interpretation and those structures have to be held in place via energy, an intersubjective energy, in order that we can all agree what politicians do, or what is done in any other aspect of life.

Stalkers then would go into any of these areas and find out what is the structure, what is the interpretive system and energetically, not just intellectually, because of course, we're not doing any of this just intellectually in our every day world either. We ARE the politicians, we ARE these things. So a stalker would find out energetically the ramifications of any of these structures and then reproduce them energetically, but going back to what I was saying, the males need to uphold those structures, so their assemblage points are very fixed, rigid, so it is difficult for them to move. They are the masterful stalkers.

Its more difficult for them to do dreaming, although of course they do it at night, but if they are going to be doing dreaming like sorcerers do it, they would have to go through the seven gates of dreaming which Carlos Castaneda in his book The Art of Dreaming, he outlines each of these gates that the male sorcerer needs to pass through in order to move his assemblage point. Now females don't have to go through these seven gates, they just can do dreaming very, very naturally because their assemblage point is more fluid and even during their menstrual cycles the assemblage point already begins to shift slightly off of its moorings so that women can perceive things, other things, more readily that are not permissible within our social framework.

HE: In order to get the energy for dreaming or get the energy for perfect stalking, in your book, you mentioned, at least Clara told you in your book Sorcerers' Crossing that the woman should be celibate. Is that true for a man to?

TA: Well this question is always charged of course with all kinds of attachments and emotional commitments. It depends, it goes back to the sorcerers' idea, well its not an idea, they have come upon it through seeing, how energetic that person is. If a person was conceived with a great jolt of energy, of course coming from his parents, then he or she may have excess energy so that they don't have to be celibate. We're not saying that people can not get married or have families or anything. There are other avenues that they can express their impeccability in or their Sorcerers' training. But if a person does not have the energy, the initial energy that was given to him at conception, then it is better for them to conserve that energy and to use it for dreaming.

To do dreaming, sorcerers use the original sexual energy and it gets transformed in the energy body. Thats what everyone starts out with, the basic energy. Thats why when we talk about recapitulation, the process of regaining the energy that was spent and still caught in the past, we were told everyone has to make a list of their sexual encounters because that is the basic energy that they can then use to perform other sorcery feats, like dreaming or acquiring internal silence, because if you don't have the energy you can't be silent, now that sounds like a contradiction, but our internal dialog its like something was turned on and it just goes, runs on and on and on and it takes energy to shut it off because its a self propelling mechanism that keeps the social structure, the social order moving.

Our internal dialog, if we pay attention to it really is a constant re-affirmation of the world as we see it and particularly our place in the world, of how we see ourselves, what we want. Don Juan always said, that there's a dysfunction, a deterioration that has happened that gives too much emphasis on the self, that shouldn't really be there for our efficient functioning in our lives. Its an imbalance, too much energy is being given to the defense of the self. Its like a big mouth out there that says ME ME ME ME, it just goes on and on. And the me or the I has to constantly be fed and that takes a tremendous amount of energy.

All our waking hours are either deployed in defending the self, propping up the self, in the presentation of the self in the eyes of others, our daily lives, or in our mating and reproduction areas, in that we need to find love, relationships, marriage, reproduction. There is a mandate to reproduce, a biological mandate, but theres also that mandate to evolve, and to reproduce at this point with the conditions of the world the way they are, it is almost logical or more beneficial to move that energy into the mandate of evolving and reaching some of these other positions of the assemblage point that would in a sense recharge the human being, give him a jolt, an energetic jolt that he so desperately needs in our day and age where everything, even the world is at an energetic low in the sense that our resources are being depleted and physically our bodies aren't in such great shape. So there is that mandate to evolve and use other areas of our totality, our potential as sentient beings and by moving energy away from these areas of the reinforcing the self, the self image, that looking glass self, always making sure we don't lose face, fighting with the petty tyrants in our daily lives, all that takes energy. So the first stage if we want to do... We could call it sorcery, but you don't need to use that term, if we want to expand our perception, we need to redeploy energy from these areas that really take the brunt of our life force and move it elsewhere.

HE: I have a couple of questions that are just technical questions. The first one is on recapitulating your life. You start by making a list of everybody you've ever met or delt with, especially your sexual partners....

TA: Yes.

HE: Then as far as the actual process goes, you take a deep breath starting with your face facing your right shoulder then you sweep across to your left shoulder taking a deep breath in. Then you breath it out as you go to your right shoulder. Then what?

TA: Then you move your head back to the center.

HE: Ok, in some places, I think it was in your book or maybe Carol Tiggs mentioned it, a sweeping breath, where you go back and forth with your head a couple of times without breathing after you come to the center. Is that...

TA: Yes, now the technical aspect of the breathing isn't that crutial, neither is the place where the recapitulation is done and I should point this out because it always comes up "Well I don't have a cave where I can retreat to for a certain amount of time and do the recapitulation." The recapitulation is a wonderful sorcery technique that was handed down from the ancient sorcerers in order to free the energy trapped in the past, our remembered selves, our personal history. Now, that is the intent that is set up.

The most important thing of the recapitulation is to have internal integrity, an unbending purpose and to link yourself to that intent, the intent that is already there, that is in our books, that is set up. How this is done and where this is done and when this is done of course has to depend on individual circumstance.

HE: Right.

TA: Because not everyone is out in the desert and not everyone...

HE: So you can just recapitulate in your car as your driving along without doing the breathing and just so long as your intent is correct?

TA: Florinda Donner Grau did an enormous recapitulation riding on a bus in Mexico, riding down to Oaxaca under horrendous circumstances if your familiar with the busses.

HE: Yes, I've been on them.

TA: And you do many, many different recapitulations. We're recapitulating to this day. Walking down the street now I recapitulate - if something triggers something. Or lets say you're at work and you have a break, you recapitulate there. The reason they say that you should start with a list, and ideally you really should begin with some sort of structure because our concentration is not that well honed at the initial stages and the list does two things. One, first of all we start with the sexual experiences because again as I said that is the main energy that is going to help you do, help give you the energy to do the other areas.

The list serves as a matrix for hooking your concentration and to create a list of everyone you've ever known in your life in itself takes a great deal of concentration and in a way also determines, "Well, do you really want to do the recapitulation?" People start their list and then they stop because its too much effort or they're not really committed.

The list sets it up and then you go from your list and you find a place where if possible, a place that is quiet and puts some pressure on the energy body, the luminous egg is from the point of view of seers, about an arms distance from both... If you extend your arms to both sides and to the front, and draw a circle, that is the size of the luminous egg from the point of view of seerers. The assemblage point for human beings is to the back, between the shoulder blades and arms distance to the back. So if you sit in a car or a cave, a small cave, or in a small closet or in a shower stall, a big box, then you notice there is some pressure exerted on your energy body and that is why sorcerers say that ideally it would be advisable to sit in something like that. It keeps you alert, it stimulates the energy body, but you don't need to do it that way. People with claustrophobia wouldn't feel at all comfortable in small confined spaces so they can do it anywhere, anywhere at all where they can concentrate.

The breathing that accompanies it, in my context I call it the sweeping breath because you sweep and you are actually like a giant broom, you feel like fibers (using your energy body of course) you feel like fibers being swept free of debris and thats the sensation, after you've been recapitulating for awhile, that you will get because you will become aware of your energy body. Recapitulating - this technique works directly on the energy body.

And yes, you can start on your right shoulder, inhaling and you sweep to the left shoulder. As you inhale, you pull back everything that... The energy that was trapped as your visualizing, of course. First you have to set up the scene. That means that you see, you visualize all the detail, in as much detail as possible, the scene, if you're in your living room or whatever, where ever you're sweeping something, you see the couch, the curtains, the TV, the rug, the walls, all the detail and then you put yourself in the scene. Also the people of course, that are there and then you watch for awhile, see what goes on. You see yourself in "action" sorcerers say. This is the only way that you really see yourself.

(tape gap)

From left to right just giving all that back then you bring your head to the center. Or some people begin on their left shoulder and sweep to right inhaling and sweep to the left exhaling.

HE: Let me tell the listeners that just might have turned on the radio that this is the Earth Mystery Show, I'm Hanes Ealy, our guest today is Taisha Abelar. Taisha Abelar has written a book called The Sorcerers' Crossing. We're talking about some of the techniques described in that book and this is KVMR 89.5 FM.

I have another small technical question that has puzzled me ever since I read your book and that is the dog Manfred, in the book don Juan said that he was part of his sorcerers party...

TA: Yes.

HE: And um, and he seemed like one of the most wonderful characters in the book. Tell me about Manfred a little bit.

TA: Yes. Manfred was, and is because his awareness is still...

HE: A dog?

TA: existence. No, he succeeded in going with don Juan's party. He was an old sorcerer that tried to make the crossing. The ancient sorcerers, through dreaming of course, they would take different forms in order to practice their dreaming and those forms, and those forms would be different positions of the assemblage point, but they, depending on their energy and their impeccability, some of them would be trapped in different dream positions and did not make it to the ultimate goal which is total freedom.

Manfred was a sorcerer that was trapped at a dream position which was the energy formation of a dog. He had enough energy at the moment of death or dissolution to get into this form of a dog so that he would not be... So his awareness would not totally be lost. So it was like an escape route that he used and of course he was profoundly one of the tragic cases because his awareness was so keen but his physical form was so limited and he would rage and rage. But on an energetic... This is a good question because when you perceive things, we perceive them in the shape of physical forms, and we are interacting with dogs and trees and people and things, objects. But our energy bodies perceive, can perceive, energy - and sorcerers, don Juan and especially Emilito who really - Manfred was his protege, his ward in that sense, they interacted with him on an energetic level, so he was not a dog. He was an energy being, an entity.

So when I was in Clara's house something in my body, out of I can only explain it - out of affection or compassion, enabled me to transcend seeing Manfred as a dog. I don't like dogs actually. I've always had a fear of dogs since childhood when I was not attacked by a dog, but a dog just sort of tumbled and jumped on top of me and I became terrified, but there was about Manfred that I could see was not a dog. There was an energetic link of pure affection because we were both tragic cases and in that sense we made a pact and we said who ever reaches the freedom, the energy level first will help pull the other one and that was a pact that stays.

Pacts and agreements between sorcerers or potential sorcerers, they last forever, for eternity. They transcend the realm of everyday life because this is not the realm that we really are interested in, we want to move out of this realm so that affection and vows and agreements like that, purpose, have to transcend the ordinary, the level of everyday life, we're not interested in giving in terms of love - human love that is replaceable as soon as you find something better. Sorcerers affection, it just stays forever, it can not be replaced, you can not change the head on the person and now you're loving someone else. Those vows stay forever and we have this agreement and I'm in touch with Manfred because he is pulling me.

He went with don Juan's group when they left. When they reached a certain stage they felt it was to... Ready to go, it was time to leave and they were able, because they had the mass to pull out of the realm of everyday life which is really saying that they had perfected all these other dream positions and their dream bodies to such a state that they could go with their awareness intact and of course Manfred now is the sorcerer that he always was, but he now has the mass of other people, uh not people, but other sorcerers, around him. But he... We definitely have this link and he's helping me to be impeccable. Just as I...

HE: I love dogs and I love doggyness and everything that Manfred did in that book I still remember as the best part.

TA: He would actually protect me and take me, show me things. In the beginning, of course, I didn't believe it, I thought he was a dog because my rational, our rational mind is so strong, the glosses, back to this term of glosses, that we have set up that make the world of everyday life perceivable and agreeable are of course so strong, we give all of our energy to the....

HE: Gloss?

TA: ...constructs. At this point in our daily life, human beings give all their energy to...

HE: The mass of the self.

TA: keep the world in order. So therefore we see dogs and again trees and things like that. To break that perceptual bias takes recapitulating, takes energy.

HE: Let me take a different tack here for our remaining 20 minutes or so.

TA: Yes.

HE: I'm not sure if you're familiar with the works of Bob Monroe, he was one of the first guests on my show. He has written books, Journeys Out of the Body, Our Journeys, basically talking about what he would call astral travel, and his technique that he teaches people involves lying down, relaxing yourself totally to a condition he calls "body asleep, mind awake" and during that process you take all of your past garbage that you can think of and you make up a dumpster, some kind of garbage can and you visualize all that stuff and you throw it in a garbage can and you close the lid to try and break free of all that attachment.

Then you visualize your energy body, the luminous fibers that the sorcerers talk about, and you try and put as much energy into that as you can and from that point forward you do various techniques to get out of your body, but basically you're becoming a focus of conscious awareness outside the body that can travel anywhere in the Universe and do anything it wants. How does that differ from conscious dreaming or the sorcerers idea of dreaming?

TA: If we look at the book The Art of Dreaming, thats really where the whole structure of what the dreaming process is according to our sorcery tradition. Its outlined there in great detail. So I'm going to just say here that there are many different stages or gates of dreaming that you go through. Now what you've been describing has similarities to some of those stages of dreaming, yes, that first you need to recapitulate, except that this sounds like a very fast process, recapitulating takes, you can't just visualize and throw everything into a dumpster, you have to take every situation, because energy is trapped, every memory, every experience that we've had in our lives is trapped in really a tissue, a cellular level. The more we go back to the details, the more we release everything in our lets say "physical" bodies, we're not just interested in the astral, or energy body, we want to first cleanse the memories that trigger our behavior as we go through everyday life in the world.

Then the relaxation, yes, the first stage of dreaming you would relax and there's that twilight zone between being asleep and awake, and you let go of your memory of the physical body, but if the physical body is so full of emotionally charged memories, if the mind, if you can't quiet your internal dialog, then you wont be able to relax and let go, to even get into that dream state. So everything works hand in hand, the recapitulation enables you to do dreaming by focusing your concentration, by allowing your physical body to release all those charged emotions and allowing it to be empty and fluid. Then you do let go and you can either do dreaming while you're asleep and if you're asleep, then you have to have that control of what your perception is via finding your hands or any other object in the room but that in itself is tremendously difficult unless you've already honed your concentration and your energy body, the awareness of your energy body.

(radio frequency interference noises)

TA: Oh, are you here?

HE: Yes, I'm here, theres something weird...

TA: Is that from you or from me?

HE: Its not from me.

(interference ends)

TA: Oh, I've changed channels.

HE: On the topic of dreaming, I'm sure you get asked this everyday, and that is the difference of sorcerers dreaming and lucid dreaming.

TA: Yes.

HE: Could you say that in a short...

TA: Yes, if you're really lucid, you're doing sorcerers' dreaming. If you have the awareness and control in your dream, then you're doing dreaming. You're assemblage point moved and you can act in that dream as if you were awake.

HE: Don Juan said that the universe is a predatory universe that there's somebody out there that wants your energy whenever you get a little bit more and the second gate of dreaming, the world of inorganic beings, it sounds very much like that is a world that is very predatory. Is there any danger in attempting this type of dreaming without the supervision of somebody who knows what they are doing?

TA: No, you don't need the supervision of somebody who knows what they're doing, what you need is sobriety and control. You yourself have to know what you are doing because you go into these dream stages alone.

Females of course don't have to worry because they are so fluid they just flow in and out, they move their assemblage points and the Universe according to sorcerers or seers is basically female energy and these predators, the inorganic beings are more after male energy.

But... This is where the dangers are that you can get trapped, but the traps are really if you indulge. If you haven't recapitulated and you're not fluid enough to not indulge in emotions like fear or affection, because the inorganic beings, they cater to our emotions, they want to give us what we want. Inorganic beings are really just energy formations, we don't want to think of them as beings from outer space. They are energy that seeks energy, and unless... If you're totally indulging and haven't recapitulated and don't have the control, then you become more or less a victim. For example, lets say if in your everyday life - we call it the "Poor Baby syndrome" - If you're always the victim and people are doing everything to you and you complain because the world isn't giving you this and that, you have this sort of defeatist attitude, and then you go into dreaming, well you're taking that with you.

HE: Isn't that Poor Baby Me, isn't that the modality of our times? Isn't that what we all carry in some sense?

TA: What we all carry inside. And all our waking days, our television, our radio, everything reinforces that. That is the modality of our day. We are victims. In a sense it is almost true, because we feel we don't have the energy to jolt ourselves out of that and we really don't because of our depletion, our depleted state. Its a self fulfilling cycle, only by redeploying that energy of everyday life, the sorcery passes, the movement, jolting the energy body, recapitulating, only through those sorcery techniques or not doing techniques that actually break that reflexivity, that intersubjective agreement that yes, I am a poor baby, everyone's a poor baby.

Of course everyone reinforces everyone else by giving solace and "let me tell you my problems" and "you don't understand me", "lets share our...". You know we feel great if everyone has problems and we really love people who are worse off than we are but its very difficult to love someone who's strong and happy and here we're the poor babies and they should be loving us. Its hard to give affection, but everyone wants affection.

So these things have to be straightened out, have to be cleared out through the recapitulation, through not doing, through stalking yourself, in the everyday life before you really tackle heavy duty dreaming. Then if you straighten those areas out and if you have a strong energy body, then you go into dreaming like a warrior, like an impeccable being, and what can touch you? Because what can touch you in this world?

If anything can deplete you or weaken you and call forth these poor baby things or self importance - "I'm the greatest thing that ever lived" - in the world of everyday life, then you know for a fact that its going to come up in your dream realities and that was the death-trap, the pitfall of the ancient sorcerers who were masterful dreamers, they could dream, take tremendous journeys into different folds of the braid, like different levels of reality, peels of the onion, astral plane, however you want to call it, the terminology doesn't matter. They would move their assemblage point to all these different levels but because of egomania, they were so rigid in their assertion of the self, and you take your self into dreaming, they got stuck there, they got lets say "bought" by the inorganic beings and they became their slaves in that sense, because of the power that they received from areas of dreaming.

HE: Given this knowledge that the sorcerers' are now distributing to the world in the form of books and talks, wouldn't the answer be for us as a society or as a race to begin the recapitulation project in childhood, for parents to teach their children recapitulation, to sit around and do it together, to try and break this tyranny of the self before it ever begins?

TA: Yes they could break that self importance before it begins, but not the recapitulation in terms of... Well, first the parent needs to recapitulate in order to serve as a model lets say for the child. The child emulates the position of the assemblage point of the parent. Whatever the parent is, that is what the child is going to copy and emulate, so if the parents, especially mothers who are so close in contact with their children, recapitulate, clear out some of these areas of self importance then the child won't even focus on these things, they'll be doing their work, they'll be learning, they'll be expanding the perception, they won't get twisted energetically, the way we have become because of a lack of awareness. You can recapitulate together with your children but it is more advisable just to clean up your life first and then serve as an example to the child because they don't have all that much to recapitulate.

HE: Right, I was thinking that if they held onto their original energy so they wouldn't lose it and started recapitulating at an early age they would never come to the point where they'd have to spend years recapitulating, it would be a natural thing that would just....

TA: They go out into the world or they'll be able to see what goes on, but that really comes from the parents awareness. If they don't have that impeccability of lets say giving affection without expecting things to return. Not this merchant mentality that we all have that is again a modality of our day, that we always want something, you know, "what's in it for me?". If the parents cling to that, then the child doesn't have a chance but if they recapitulate and be impeccable parents, then those children will be impeccable children and they will have what don Juan calls perfect tonals, that is, their being that is in the world of everyday life will be energetically strong and will have a positive outlook and will be able to function in the world on a high energetic level rather than being defeated by the world and the challenges that we all have to face on a day by day basis.

HE: What do you see the future of the world in general as, considering that the modality of the time is the poor baby me and the merchant mentality as you mentioned, what hope is there for the spirit of the world in general?

TA: Its very bleak in the sense that everywhere you look, the egomania is rampant and you can see it, just look for yourself, just open your eyes for a moment and if we look around us, at what's on television, the media, and what we encounter at work, what messages are being given us via the media and our world policies, then we see that the world, the resources are being depleted and yet we don't want to really change our lives and so its a downward spiral.

HE: Could the energy, assemblage point of the world itself be shifted so that all this changes in the blink of an eye?

TA: In the blink of an eye? You would need a cataclysm. Sorcerers say, they see that yes, there were times when the assemblage point of the world shifted maybe the ice age or great cataclysms that actually shifted... The earth was actually shifted on its axis at one point. Some people say it actually reversed it's rotation. Those of course are not within our conceptual range, but to shift now, you would need a total upheaval to shift suddenly but you can shift gradually. But in order to do this you can't say "lets save the rainforest" and then you drive your Mercedes or build your house of wood or something like that.

You have to start with yourself, you have to move your assemblage point as an individual and then set up a new arc of intentionality, the sorcerers intent. As it is, we are, our assemblage points are fixed and that spot is getting weaker and weaker because the position of the assemblage point was not always there on our energetic being, just as it wasn't always there on the totality of the earth itself. It has shifted over the ages and it can shift now and that is what sorcerers... that is really our hope, and why we are addressing people at this point, because we know, that it is possible to move the assemblage point and when you do that on an individual basis, you can attract what the sorcerers call "a critical mass." Others will also will be able to move their assemblage points because now we are building a new intersubjective agreement that people who have recapitulated or who are starting are able to say "yes, I see a difference" or people who do the sorcery passes or begin dreaming with integrity not indulging can say "yes, I see the difference in how I perceive the world" and that builds up a new intersubjectivity that revitalizes.

It will revitalize the world, but only if you revitalize you're own energetic self. And then of course, our children, what we talked about a moment ago, if the parents are vital strong human beings, our children will also reflect that and going back to the original, how children are conceived, whether we are energetically conceived or not, parents who have recapitulated and moved their assemblage point and then have a child, have sex and have a child, that offspring will be energetically strong. So all that reinforces itself and you can change.

HE: I have one question before we go, the hour is winding down and that is, in all of Carlos Castaneda's books and your book and Florinda Donner's book, the idea of telepathy comes up. One of the sorcerers will anticipate your question or will comment about the contents of your thought.

TA: Yes.

HE: At what point in the sorcerers training does one become telepathic?

TA: At the point where you quiet the internal dialog. When you no longer have your self being reaffirmed constantly in consciousness, when you no longer have any worries about "Whats going to happen to me?" or worries about your job or worries about everyday life, when you're silent, then you develop... And through the recapitulation, when you start jolting your energy body, you develop what the sorcerers call the "seer" in you or you could call it an emissary or the voice of seeing and that is just something that tells you. It doesn't have to be verbal, its a feeling that "oh they're thinking this" and sometimes you can even hear the thoughts of the other person.

HE: You were a Buddhist monk for a number of years. You stalked the position of a male Buddhist monk.

TA: Yes.

HE: Does that position of quieting the internal thinking result in that discipline as well.

TA: Of course there's many, many meditation techniques and the monks are... of any, it doesn't have to be Buddhist, in any sect... Zen... that is their goal to quiet inside. Originally, no, I had already done the recapitulation prior to any of this and some of the not doing techniques so I was able to stalk these positions, but that is not to say that if you practice Zen meditation you can't quiet your internal dialog.

There's many, many meditation techniques that shut off the internal dialog, but that is not enough, that's one thing I would like to say that just to have it quiet inside is fine, but what happens when you go back to work and you're surrounded by people and an angry boss or at home and your children and people are yelling at you? You want to be able to have silence and equanimity and resolve in any situation, so we were always sent back into work situations, into school, academic situations, where we would practice quieting the internal dialog. Not really sitting in zazen or a cave where you can practice meditation because I know and I have talked to Buddhist monks now, the Tibetan monks that have come to Los Angeles and they say its very difficult to maintain their equanimity and the same thing happened in China when the Chinese went up to the mountains where the Taoist temples were and more or less turned them into tourist spots, the monks say that now that the world has entered their domain they have destroyed some of the silence that they have built up, which is true, but sorcerers' say "Build up your silence not on a mountain top but within yourself" and that is what quieting the internal dialog means to us.

HE: I think we're going to have to end at that point. Our guest today on the Earth Mystery Show is Taisha Abelar, she's written a wonderful book entitled The sorcerers' crossing, I'd highly recommend reading that and I'd recommend reading it in conjunction with Florinda Donner's book Being in Dreaming and Carlos Castaneda's book, The Art of Dreaming, the three of them really paint a picture thats hard to describe on the air.

Taisha, after I invited Florinda Donner to come up and do a seminar or lecture in our area she said she would, or she would like to and we had a tide of phone calls and letters saying "let me know, let me know, I want to hear those people." I'm extending the same invitation to you and to Carol Tiggs. Please put it into your dreams to come to the Grass Valley, Nevada City area and let us see you in person.

TA: We would love to come up there. We'll put out the intent and....

(end of tape)

Copyright 1993 KVMR Radio